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Television Shows

Spike S2-3 (Chipless & Soulless)

8% (1 vote)

Spike S4-6 (Soulless but Chipped)

33% (4 votes)

Spike S6-7(Chipped & Soulled)

8% (1 vote)

Spike S7 (Chipless & Soulled)

17% (2 votes)

Angel in Sunnydale (Buffy S1-3)

8% (1 vote)

Angel in LA (Angel S1-4)

8% (1 vote)

Angelus in Sunnydale

0% (0 votes)

Angelus in LA

17% (2 votes)

Total votes: 12

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Submitted by Logan on Fri, 05/09/2003 - 18:39.

Hey I was just skimming over some season 1 eps. Is it weird to see Angel in his first appearance. They make him out to look like such a wimp. Totally different from what he is now.

on a side note, i was never in danger of a beating, cause we all know I could take Ric in a fight :P

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Submitted by Kieran on Fri, 05/09/2003 - 17:38.

oh sorry...was just poking fun @ shaun...seriously, hes in no harm of a beating

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Submitted by Firefly on Fri, 05/09/2003 - 16:21.

Uh, risking being threatened with beating as well, I have to say that the latest episode of Buffy which I watched on Tuesday is further proof of Spike's nobility and his true feelings for Buffy. What I want to say here is, from watching this whole season, one thing I love is that soul or no soul, Spike isn't a wimp. He's got a dark edge, and remorse or not, he's not afraid to do whatever it takes. He can be hard when he has to, and he doesn't wallow in self pity when it comes time to be hard. That's a major difference between him and Angel. Angel always does the right thing, even the hardest thing, but he sure spends a lot of time feeling sorry about it. I like that Spike is more brash, more emotional, less inclined to ponder the consequences. It's what makes him unique. Otherwise, he might be just another Angel clone, and what fun would that be?

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Submitted by Kieran on Fri, 05/09/2003 - 00:14.

shut up before i beat you @ the next time we meet up :twisted:

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Submitted by Logan on Thu, 05/08/2003 - 22:22.

Wow, after just watching the latest Buffy episode, my liking for Spike has really shot up.....Maybe he is as cool as Angel *goes off to ponder it*

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Submitted by Tyler_Hyatt on Tue, 05/06/2003 - 20:11.

Quote:

Yes, he could fight (and kill) Buffy with it on the fritz... but then what? Most likely, he has to go back to his old, human-killing ways, and would be unable to defend himself against the revenge of the scoobies.

True enough. But if he wanted to hurt her immediately, there are other ways, easier ways. There are plenty of Bads in town he could have fed them to, plenty of ways to deal with the Scoobies that don't involve traveling halfway aroudn the world and substatial risk to Spike himself.

Hell, he could have trapped them with the Nerds.

Quote:

Though in all honesty, I'm inclined to think that from what I know of the charecter, Joss's intent may have been to have him looking for the soul - but I think at the time, Spike may not have known what he was looking for.

Also possible. The most logical way of putting it I've seen. I look at the whole mess a a large piece of bad writing.

Quote:

And yes, my interpretation is allowed to be different from the author's

You're talking to an English major, Adam, ninety percent of my lfie is interpreting literature.

ANd I happen to think Season 6 Spike/Buffy was a bad girlfriend story, up until Seeing Red, when they copped out on the role reversal. The author disagrees. So more power to you. :D

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Submitted by Kaarin on Tue, 05/06/2003 - 19:55.

Quote:

Why would Spike need the chip out to have another battle with Buffy? It was established early in season 6 that he could hurt her without pain. To have him go to Africa to gain the power to do something he could already do would have made no sense.

Depends on the mindset. The possible one I could come up with would be that I think it had also been established before Spike wanted back to the way he was without the chip. Yes, he could fight (and kill) Buffy with it on the fritz... but then what? Most likely, he has to go back to his old, human-killing ways, and would be unable to defend himself against the revenge of the scoobies.

While Spike may be bold and brazen, an idiot he is not.

On point one - you might keep in mind that I'm emphatically out of the loop on any Joss commentary, and have not seen most of season six or any of season 7. Though in all honesty, I'm inclined to think that from what I know of the charecter, Joss's intent may have been to have him looking for the soul - but I think at the time, Spike may not have known what he was looking for.

He might very well have realised he was looking for it after the fact, but before that, I have my doubts. The question of whether or not he would have actually gone through with eating humans again if his chip generally fails was never, from what I saw, satisfactorally answered.

And yes, my interpretation is allowed to be different from the author's. :)

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Submitted by Tyler_Hyatt on Tue, 05/06/2003 - 19:31.

Quote:

Much as I like Spike, Kris, leaving quibbles on soul definitions aside, I don't think he really wanted one. He did - even with the chip - try to force himself on Buffy, and then went out looking for the demon to "Make me the way I was" to "give her what she deserves." We know Spike has a thing for wanting to kill Slayers.

The demon who granted his wish reminded me a lot of Andrew Divoff's Djinn from the Wishmaster series: he gives you what you ask for, not necessarily what you want. When Spike says, "Make me like I was before," there are two ways to take that: like I was before I was chipped or before I was a vampire.

Think we know enough about Spike to know that he has this Heraclitean love-hate feeling for Buffy - it's more likely he wanted to lose the chip, and get to have his final battle with her. One of them kills the other. This could easily be what Spike wanted, though he did get what he asked for in having his soul back

There's one word for this: nonsense.

1. Joss has said that was what Spike was after. I'll dig up the quote if I must, but the ambiguity he termed "something called a 'plot twist.'" THis alone ought to end the debate. But then there's this:

2. Why would Spike need the chip out to have another battle with Buffy? It was established early in season 6 that he could hurt her without pain. To have him go to Africa to gain the power to do something he could already do would have made no sense.

Quote:

which im sorry spike aint and spike, simply could not care for what hes done in the past, let alone choose to fight the good fight for reasons other than getting in the slayers pants, angel doesnt love because he cant, so hes built a wall around him...thinking of season 2, ive never seen a moment between spike and buffy like those between angel and buffy

First off:

1. I'm going to assume you haven't seen the end of Sleeper or Beneath You, or any of Never Leave Me because those episodes make Spike's remorse crystal clear. I'll even go ahead and leave out the pre-soul remorse after what SPike did in Seeing Red.

And let's not forget, ANgel got his soul because it was the worst torture gypsies could come up with. Spike inflicted that on himself out fo remorse.

Beyond that, if you want to have this discussion, out of respect for the no spoiler rule, I'll have it on MSn any time you like, so long as it stays civil. SPike/ANgel stuff too often isn't.

2. Spike protected Dawn after Buffy was dead, ie doing what's right for reasons other than getting in the Slayer's pants. Had all he'd been after been getting in her pants, he'd not have done that, or counted days while she was gone, or spoken the words "But you treat me like a man..." in THe Gift, or bothered to feel bad about the AR, or gone to get his soul....I could go on for pages. The debate over whether Spike loves Buffy, even from a casual viewing, ought to have been settled on screen by now. It's pretty clear.

ANd as I posted previously:

"That which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil." Friedrich Nietzsche

And there've been plenty of moments between them. But we see what we want to see, in that regard. :lol:

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Submitted by Kaarin on Tue, 05/06/2003 - 17:27.

Much as I like Spike, Kris, leaving quibbles on soul definitions aside, I don't think he really wanted one. He did - even with the chip - try to force himself on Buffy, and then went out looking for the demon to "Make me the way I was" to "give her what she deserves." We know Spike has a thing for wanting to kill Slayers.

The demon who granted his wish reminded me a lot of Andrew Divoff's Djinn from the Wishmaster series: he gives you what you ask for, not necessarily what you want. When Spike says, "Make me like I was before," there are two ways to take that: like I was before I was chipped or before I was a vampire.

Think we know enough about Spike to know that he has this Heraclitean love-hate feeling for Buffy - it's more likely he wanted to lose the chip, and get to have his final battle with her. One of them kills the other. This could easily be what Spike wanted, though he did get what he asked for in having his soul back.

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Submitted by Firefly on Tue, 05/06/2003 - 17:02.

Uh...Spike. And as for what he's done to consider himself a champion is to help when he had no real reason to. Unlike Angel, who accidentally got his soul back and with it a whole bag of guilt, Spike helped when he had no reason to care. If that doesn't prove he's a hero, then how about this. He went out in search of that there soul he's carrying around. The one that causes so much pain. Having a soul means having a conscience and feeling regret. Maybe he doesn't wallow in it, brooding ala Angel, but Spike feels for everything he's done and everything he's had to do. He went out and sought that pain, for love, and that's a hell of a lot more noble than suffering through it just cause you offed the wrong girl at the wrong time.

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Submitted by Kieran on Tue, 05/06/2003 - 10:41.

s'alright shaun, it aint about the numbers but what we believe man :twisted:

hey, angel is noble, he cant act on impulses cause itll lead to bad consequences, i mean seriously, how tragic is it that someone cant enjoy a single moment of happiness because then hell turn evil...angel knows the circumstances and that is why he broods all the time, hes chosen to fight the good fight and has seen the horrors of what hes done as angelus...there is nothing boring about atonement, rather it is an interesting and heartbreaking quest to follow...true he broods, but given his circumstances, would he be any other way, i could think of a long list of brooders who are interesting, just because someone is able to laugh, scream, joke, brood (he does it badly) pine for love, doesnt mean he is more versatile...angel is a thinking man (i guess people (especially girls) really dont fancy cerebral guys nowadays), which im sorry spike aint and spike, simply could not care for what hes done in the past, let alone choose to fight the good fight for reasons other than getting in the slayers pants, angel doesnt love because he cant, so hes built a wall around him...thinking of season 2, ive never seen a moment between spike and buffy like those between angel and buffy

oh yeah, the sensitivity card...whatever, guys can be sensitive but that doesnt make them interesting, just cause spike likes to whine like a bitch cause he misses the unwavering arms of his mother and angel doesnt, doesnt mean that angel is insensitive...he just chooses to keep his emotions inside because he sees that it is not all about him

arrrgghhh, even www.cityofangel.com has been taken over by buffy marks, although spike does get his kicked on the boards

:oops: dont get me wrong, i am not anti-buffy....anyways, this is my last angel rant, sorry to annoy or irritate anybody

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Submitted by Jadyn on Tue, 05/06/2003 - 10:12.

Adam - I'm waiting for that option too, which is why I haven't voted. :P Sorry to disappoint babe, but this thread wasn't started by me. Think Dave split it from some other discussion we were having...

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Submitted by Logan on Tue, 05/06/2003 - 09:10.

It seems Riccardo, that we are outnumbered big time.

Come on, any of you guys in the woodwork more of an Angel fan than Spike fan? Speak up, dont leave us hanging heheh :P

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Submitted by Firefly on Tue, 05/06/2003 - 01:22.

I too am looking for that option, Adam. I have to agree with the Spike fans here. I love Angel and I adore "Angel", as I see the show as much better in many ways than Buffy itself. But, Spike is such a great character. He's noble and flawed and so deep. And he's sexy as all get out.

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Submitted by Kaarin on Sun, 05/04/2003 - 20:37.

Nah, still give them adamantium. It takes out that wussy heart blow, makes you cut off the other guy's head.

Psst, April.... where's the option for "Spike at any time"? :)

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Submitted by MrDave on Sun, 05/04/2003 - 17:55.

These are vampires, silly. Wooden claws.

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Submitted by Kieran on Sun, 05/04/2003 - 16:26.

hey, i know how to settle this...give both guys a set of adamantium claws and let them fight it out!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Submitted by Logan on Sat, 05/03/2003 - 03:44.

Mantheana wrote:

. But totaly bleach head. WHat could look suaver. not much.

There is nothing more passé than bleached hair. So 2 years ago :wink:

Angel's Hair is uber roxor :)

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Submitted by Meredith Bell on Fri, 05/02/2003 - 14:13.

:smilecolros: APPLAUDS:smilecolros:

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Submitted by Mantheana on Fri, 05/02/2003 - 12:48.

I love Spike. sorry, but I do. He has developed so much as a character after all the time on the show, and still pulls all of it off with incredible convincability. he has been evil, been a cripple, been a back stabber, been a collaberater, been rejected, been a rejecter, been the victim, been asking for help, been asked for help, been the baby sitter, been shunned, been accepted, been a martyr, been used, been an abuser, been violent, been gentle, been a loved one, been one who loves, and has been it ALL in style.

Look at Angel. He came on the show. He brooded. He brooded. He brooded some more. He he gained weight. he broooded. Slept with buffy, went evil. Was an interesting character. got sent to hell. came bakc. brooded. went away. Got to LA, gained more weight and then brooded. brooded. bonked darla. lost son. got him back. Fell unconvincingly in love with cordy. BROODED!

How brilliant was Spike when Buffy found him and he went back to the church and we knew about his soul? James Marsters pulled that off so brilliantly to the tiniest detail. Angel gets back his soul and just appologises continuously and then broods. Its not that I don't like angel, or david boreanaz, but angel is quite the bland character. Angelus is a riot, and is so much more fun to watch, but you only see him in small bursts. However, you can still have fun watching Spike, whether hes being good or evil, as either way, he is witty, thoughtful and not at all perfect.

The hair? I'm sorry but angels can be acheived using "that nancy boy hairgel I do love so much" and that about it. Little up flicky. The amoun tof people that wear that over here is incredible. But totaly bleach head. WHat could look suaver. not much.

The coat? Spike all the way man! Trench/duster coats rock. Angel wears a coat like my dad. need I say more.

Spike rocks in my mind, and that is enough for me. Thank you, and good day.

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Submitted by Logan on Thu, 05/01/2003 - 16:47.

Im with April on this one, Spike pulls off the jacket look better than Angel.

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Submitted by Jadyn on Thu, 05/01/2003 - 06:01.

Awww man. Angel singing "Mandy". The episode which showed him back in the 70s or 80s swaying around to the jukebox in the diner had me cringing. As did the one with him and Connor doing a Barry duet. *shudders*

Anyway, long leather jacket. To be honest, I can't remember the last time I've seen Angel wear a trenchcoat but even if I could, I'd still have to say Spike looks better. It goes with the whole "bad boy" image. (Billy Idol, anyone? Heh...) And the fact that he took it off one of the Slayers he killed makes it a little bit cooler, if a little morbid.

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Submitted by Kieran on Thu, 05/01/2003 - 01:04.

OMG!!! seriously, spike's hair is better????????? gotta agree with you shaun :D DB exudes suaveness and debonairness (hey...i know its not a word, but u get my poiny, no?) and coolness...cordy never said "mmm, salty goodness" to spike...

as for liam not carign about anything, that's true to an extent, but ultimately he never lived up to his father's expectations, so eventually, he just decided to give up...besides, what has spike done to even begin to consider himself a champion...and despite all spike's romanticism, he did kill two slayers, which angelus didnt...

btw...angel singing mandy is so f'n funny!!!!!!!

who looks better in a long, leather jacket?

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Submitted by Logan on Wed, 04/30/2003 - 23:41.

Im sorry Adam, but you are totally crazy if you think Spike's hair is better than Angel's. DB's hair style is soooooo cool. *Runs off wishing he could style it so perfectly*

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Submitted by Kaarin on Wed, 04/30/2003 - 20:11.

In which case, Spike still wins. Of course, y'all already know my view of Angel by now. :)

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Submitted by MrDave on Wed, 04/30/2003 - 19:56.

"Rest in Peace" without a doubt. One its a very cool song and two I HATE the song Mandy even when Barry Manilow sang it

Of course no debate about Angel v Spike would be complete without the question of hair...

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Submitted by Logan on Wed, 04/30/2003 - 19:35.

Ok lets add a new element to the Angel Vs Spike debate

Which song do you prefer

Angels rendition of "Mandy" or Spike's "Let me Rest in Peace"?

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Submitted by Meredith Bell on Wed, 04/30/2003 - 17:28.

Wow Kris! Yeah! You're like Tony Robbins... if he was a tall red haired woman... you're exactly like Tony Robbins :D

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Submitted by Firefly on Wed, 04/30/2003 - 16:41.

Ok, I am currently on a 10 book reading marathon of some of the Angel novels that have come out since the show started. I am ashamed to say, big reader that I am, that I haven't read any of these up til now. The thing is, something that was said in one of these books struck me when I read it and sort of seemed particularly apt to this discussion we are having here. See, the thing is, Angel was at this crime scene and a bunch of teenagers were there talking about this gruesome murder, and being young human males, they were totally loving the nasty event. Angel overhears them, and he starts thinking how hard it is for him to care about humanity, when they act that way. What follows right on the heels of this thought, is that he was never really a sensitive guy, even when he was alive. That's the thing that got to me.
Angel is not sensitive. He never really was. Without his soul, he is the perfect monster, cold and cruel and truly in awe of his own evil. Spike isn't the same at all. Even without a soul, there's always been this sort of sensitive, soft side to him. He can be hurt, he has been and we've seen it. As a man, he was too sensitive to those around him. And then, when he fell for Buffy, he went out and sought the trials he had to go through to get his soul back. That says something, doesn't it? He didn't accidentally get his soul back, he wasn't cursed due to his own evil. What Angel received in retribution for his evil, Spike sought for his love.
Don't get me wrong, I love both of these guys. (How could I not?) It's just I think, at the bottom of it all, Spike might be the better hero, no matter what his flaws may be, he's a hero despite them, not without them.

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Submitted by MrDave on Tue, 04/29/2003 - 20:07.

On the Spike/Angel debate I have to go with Spike. I am constantly amazed at how my feelings about him oscillate between hating him and liking him. It takes a very special character to drive you away and bring you back again.

I always like Angel (and even Angelus...you have to love a guy who likes being evil so much).

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Submitted by Meredith Bell on Tue, 04/29/2003 - 19:08.

LOL! Sounds like my parents who never 'argue' only have 'discussions' and 'heated debates' :D

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Submitted by Logan on Tue, 04/29/2003 - 19:04.

oh sorry I guess argument was the bad word, I didnt mean it to come out like that. I realized it was just a discussion, I should have said Debate.

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Submitted by Tyler_Hyatt on Tue, 04/29/2003 - 17:56.

There's no argument, Shaun. Riccardo asked a question, I answered. The crack at the beginning has to do with he and I disagreeing on this, and comics. Bad joke, is all.

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Submitted by Logan on Tue, 04/29/2003 - 17:43.

In response to the argument between Ben and Riccardo,

Spike is great, everything you said about him is true (although im not sure about him being the best actor, still havent decided on that)

BUT

Angel is simply a greater Hero. He has spent his life trying to redeem himself, whereas I dont see Spike trying to make peace with what he has done. Angel is someone to look up to in terms of morals and whatnot. Im afraid I have to back Riccardo (not something I do often in Buffy/Angel discussions) but Angel wins over Spike.

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Submitted by Tyler_Hyatt on Tue, 04/29/2003 - 12:20.

Man, Riccardo. I get the feeling you and I arne't going to get along too well. :P

Anyway, from the male sect:

1. Marsters is the best actor on either show. He makes awful dialogue sound good. Just look at the end of Beneath You, there's a line in that mess that makes me cringe to read. But I don't notice when I watch.

2. There's not a man in this world that hasn't been head over heels for a girl who wouldn't give him the time of day. Lord knows I have.(been a Spike fan since Fool For Love, in case you're curious.)

3. THe guy blurs lines like crazy. He's a bad guy, but he's human with it. He's got redeeming qualities(love for Dru), not like with Angelus. Were it not for the killer aspect, you almost could like the guy. He felt remorse and love without a soul, then sought his soul on his own.

Traditional defnitions don't apply. That alone makes him interesting.

4. THe "redeemed by Love" story is so unwaveringly romantic I cna't help but love it. Even more so, since he got no recognition from the Scoobs, because he did it all for Buffy, but as Nietzsche said:

"That which is done out of love always takes place beyond good and evil."

That sums up the reasons nicely. All in all, I identify with Spike more than anybody else on the show. Doesn't mean I don't like DB.

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Submitted by Kieran on Tue, 04/29/2003 - 11:52.

come on...angel has attitude...hes got the smarts (which spike doesnt) but chooses to keep his badassness restrained, that is admirable in a man, isnt it?????? when needs be, he can unleash...but whatever, angel atones for his past sins, whereas spike couldnt give two monkeycraps...*sigh* when will girls stop going after tha bad boys!!!!!! :cry:

oh, and angelus is so methodical and twisted...his kill is all a game :twisted: whereas spiek is like wham-bam tahnk you, maam, next!

Spike vs Angel

Submitted by Jadyn on Tue, 04/29/2003 - 11:16.

Riccardo - The reason why most of us would take Spike over Angel anyday is this...

A.T.T.I.T.U.D.E.

Spike has it. Angel doesn't. Especially not after he left for L.A... He had that whole angst factor going for him in Sunnydale with his tortured relationship with the slayer. His evil alter ego, Angelus, is quite delicious too... But all in all, I find Angel to be a bit of a wuss. Nice... But boring. (Oh, except for that tattoo on his back... Love that one... Beautiful work.) :P

Spike, on the other hand, is the bad boy that appeals to the rebel inside us. He's the guy every girl wants to tame. He's thoroughly bad and totally unapologetic for it. *grin* Even with the soul, he's still a leather-clad, cigarette-dangling, bike-riding, fighting, swaggering bad boy. What more can a girl want? Heh... *droooooooooools* :)

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