Which is itself an absolute. With that line the Jedi become that which they oppose.
Something I noticed, after taking mom to see it (considering she gave me $40 to use in seeing it, it only seemed fair to show her what she was paying for - which reminds me. Dave, how much do I owe you?), is that this happened long before Obi-Wan's line - it was, in fact, the thing that drove Anakin to the Dark Side. Because if we're going to betray the Jedi Code, why not just go all the way and become Sith Lords?
Consider: the opening. Anakin has defeated Count Dooku. He is now an unarmed prisoner. Palpatine says, quite calmly, "Kill him." Anakin afterwards remarks, "He's an unarmed prisoner; it was against the Jedi code." Palpatine replies that he was far too dangerous to let live.
Later: Mace Windu is prepared to kill Palpatine. Anakin reminds him that that killing an unarmed prisoner is against the Jedi code. Mace Windu replies that Palpatine is too dangerous to let live.
A Jedi just gave the exact same justification for violating the Jedi code that the Dark Lord gave.
Robin and I just had this discussion ourselves, and I too blame the Jedi for everything that happens with Anakin and Palpatine as well. They are so consumed with their own importance, so overcome with their own power, and so completely at the mercy of their own fear, that they are completely unable to adapt or to accomodate Anakin. He has a destiny, but the Jedi thwart him at every turn. They neither trust him nor accept him as one of their own.
The ideas that the Council teach are beyond ridiculous, they are blatantly impossible. You should sacrifice all emotion, but somehow manage to be both selfless and compassionate. There's a reason why the root word there is passion. I'm sorry, but the Jedi go too far to the opposite extreme of the Sith. I imagine that is a reactionary effect more than anything else. The Sith use and embrace their emotional nature, so the Jedi subdue and subjugate it completely. That just doesn't work.
Anakin is tragic not only because of his love of Padme, but also because he is doomed from the start.
I'm actually inclined to disagree with the idea that, if he truely loved Padme, he would have listened to her warning, or rather heeded her warning. There is a Latin quip in one of my books which translates: "I don't think anyone knows that I love her - I haven't done anything foolish yet." If there is one thing we might say about love, is that it clouds your judgement.
Fear of loss can certainly lead into it, but Yoda, like Epictetus, gives counsel appropriate to only inhuman monsters, the extreme which would have you say every day of your wife "This is a woman" so that you will not be disturbed when you lose her. Though he does counsel Anakin to accept death as a natural part of life, and for accepting of death, some of his other advice here is more questionable.
Most of Anakin's fall, however, I blame on a combination of things. The last straw is Mace Windu going to kill Palpatine in his office, something against the Jedi code, which even Anakin himself has violated (no killing unarmed prisoners). Remember also, what we have here is a young man who has never accepted the Passion/Feeling dichotomy. Couple this with the fact that Mace is now going against the Jedi code, that he admitted to not trusting Anakin right before even though Anakin came to him and said that Palpatine is the Sith Lord.
In short, I don't blame power. I don't blame Padme and his worry. I blame the Jedi for bringing it on themselves.
With that in mind: I do think he seeks power, but at first, it's for a particular purpose. Saving Padme. The fact that he loves her does not mean that he's going to turn away, particularly since we know that Anakin is overconfident. He's probably sitting there thinking, "Well... I can learn the Dark Side and stay in control. I can use the power of the Dark Side to help people."
It is only later that he becomes less concerned with Padme and more concerned with sheer power. The transition occurs far, far too quickly in a single film to say exactly when, however. Certainly by the time of Mustafar he's become rather cleverly self-decieved into thinking that he's doing it for Padme, though the fact that he's willing to force choke her kind of puts that to rest. But before that, I do think that he's motivated out of concern for Padme primarily.
Anakin's failure as a hero comes from how he becomes warped. Obviously, he needs to master the force. He needs to master the Dark Side. Just one thing he forgot: the force not only obeys your commands, but partly controls your actions. So if you learn the Dark Side, that means you have the Dark Side trying to control you. His desire to protect Padme gets warped and twisted, just as his desire to end the war became warped and twisted where what mattered was a return of stablity.
What starts to matter with Padme isn't him gaining power to prevent death, but control over life. That's why he's able to start force choking her in the end: he believes that she has betrayed him, and by this point, he's supposed to have control. It's just just a question of preservation anymore, but instead making the choice.
So, long story short: it starts out being out of love before the fall; then, and only then, does it become a power motivation.
I think it was a quest for power, but not in quite so "sinister" a form. I think his quest for power lay in his desire to "make things right" including bringing order to the galaxy and preventing the death of Padme. He began to increasingly see existing power structures are ineffectual and to set things on the right path, he and Palpatine needed to be in full control. People who were opposed to this had to be "evil" because everyone should have been able to see that the Vader/Palpatine way was the only way to get everything to fall into place and keep the universe from falling to pieces. I think his fall was more a misguided sense of... well, civic duty, for lack of a better term, that got wildly out of control.
Sorry Shaun, I'm with Matt on this one. If Anakin truly loved Padme, he should have listened when she begged him to turn from the path he'd taken. But he wasn't doing it for love of her - he was doing it because she was *his* and he didn't want to lose her. (Fear of loss - remember Yoda's advice to Anakin about letting go of that you fear to lose the most?)
I'm not denying love was there between the two of them - but Anakin's turn to the dark side was motivated by fear of loss and greed for power rather than true love. He didn't do it for Padme - he did it for himself.
Submitted by Disposable_Hero on Mon, 05/30/2005 - 11:56.
Now I see Anakin's fall in a different light. The way I see it, Anakin went to the dark side for one reason and one reason only: power, pure and simple. That's what motivates him. He wanted more and the dark side gave it to him on a silver plate. As he says in episode 3 "I want more and I know I shouldn't" or something like that. So when it becomes convenient for him, Anakin deludes himself by pretending its all in the name of love. Ultimately he's just seduced by power.
Ok guys, here is the thing (for those of you who have seen the movie). Matt and I are arguing about Anakin's motives for turning to the dark side. Now ill post my opinion, and Matt's will follow after. We need your help deciding which is right ;)
I say Anaking turned to the dark side out of love. He's a tragic hero, who met his downfall because he just wanted to do what was best for the woman he loved. Now im saying as he became seduced, the motives began to change towards gaining power, but ultimately, the reason for Anakins fall from grace is because of love - beautiful but tragic.
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Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
My dad's friend gave us the bootleg of this yesterday so I'll be watching it sometime this weekend 8)
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
Something I noticed, after taking mom to see it (considering she gave me $40 to use in seeing it, it only seemed fair to show her what she was paying for - which reminds me. Dave, how much do I owe you?), is that this happened long before Obi-Wan's line - it was, in fact, the thing that drove Anakin to the Dark Side. Because if we're going to betray the Jedi Code, why not just go all the way and become Sith Lords?
Consider: the opening. Anakin has defeated Count Dooku. He is now an unarmed prisoner. Palpatine says, quite calmly, "Kill him." Anakin afterwards remarks, "He's an unarmed prisoner; it was against the Jedi code." Palpatine replies that he was far too dangerous to let live.
Later: Mace Windu is prepared to kill Palpatine. Anakin reminds him that that killing an unarmed prisoner is against the Jedi code. Mace Windu replies that Palpatine is too dangerous to let live.
A Jedi just gave the exact same justification for violating the Jedi code that the Dark Lord gave.
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
I concur, although my dad says he wants to take my brother and me soon :D
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
And I've not cast my vote cos I've not seen SW:RotS yet so I can't really comment - well, not on the movie anyway :twisted:
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
IF YOU'RE NOT WITH ME, THEN YOU ARE AGAINST ME!!!
*Starts to Force Choke Adam!*
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
Well, I didn't officially vote. Because as Jennifer said yesterday when mentioning it to her, "Does it have to be one or the other?"
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
Oh i think Love is in the lead now! :P @ Matt!
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
I dunno, but there better be some cool lightsaber fights for my $13!
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
This is all summed up by two of the characters in the movie:
Palpatine says "The Jedi and the Sith are so very similar in so many ways"
and when Anakin says "If you won't join us you are our enemy."
Obi Wan replies "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."
Which is itself an absolute. With that line the Jedi become that which they oppose.
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
Precisely Adam...
Robin and I just had this discussion ourselves, and I too blame the Jedi for everything that happens with Anakin and Palpatine as well. They are so consumed with their own importance, so overcome with their own power, and so completely at the mercy of their own fear, that they are completely unable to adapt or to accomodate Anakin. He has a destiny, but the Jedi thwart him at every turn. They neither trust him nor accept him as one of their own.
The ideas that the Council teach are beyond ridiculous, they are blatantly impossible. You should sacrifice all emotion, but somehow manage to be both selfless and compassionate. There's a reason why the root word there is passion. I'm sorry, but the Jedi go too far to the opposite extreme of the Sith. I imagine that is a reactionary effect more than anything else. The Sith use and embrace their emotional nature, so the Jedi subdue and subjugate it completely. That just doesn't work.
Anakin is tragic not only because of his love of Padme, but also because he is doomed from the start.
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
Trust Adam to turn a simple poll into an essay writing competition! :wink: (J/K)
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
Well said Adam!
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
I'm actually inclined to disagree with the idea that, if he truely loved Padme, he would have listened to her warning, or rather heeded her warning. There is a Latin quip in one of my books which translates: "I don't think anyone knows that I love her - I haven't done anything foolish yet." If there is one thing we might say about love, is that it clouds your judgement.
Fear of loss can certainly lead into it, but Yoda, like Epictetus, gives counsel appropriate to only inhuman monsters, the extreme which would have you say every day of your wife "This is a woman" so that you will not be disturbed when you lose her. Though he does counsel Anakin to accept death as a natural part of life, and for accepting of death, some of his other advice here is more questionable.
Most of Anakin's fall, however, I blame on a combination of things. The last straw is Mace Windu going to kill Palpatine in his office, something against the Jedi code, which even Anakin himself has violated (no killing unarmed prisoners). Remember also, what we have here is a young man who has never accepted the Passion/Feeling dichotomy. Couple this with the fact that Mace is now going against the Jedi code, that he admitted to not trusting Anakin right before even though Anakin came to him and said that Palpatine is the Sith Lord.
In short, I don't blame power. I don't blame Padme and his worry. I blame the Jedi for bringing it on themselves.
With that in mind: I do think he seeks power, but at first, it's for a particular purpose. Saving Padme. The fact that he loves her does not mean that he's going to turn away, particularly since we know that Anakin is overconfident. He's probably sitting there thinking, "Well... I can learn the Dark Side and stay in control. I can use the power of the Dark Side to help people."
It is only later that he becomes less concerned with Padme and more concerned with sheer power. The transition occurs far, far too quickly in a single film to say exactly when, however. Certainly by the time of Mustafar he's become rather cleverly self-decieved into thinking that he's doing it for Padme, though the fact that he's willing to force choke her kind of puts that to rest. But before that, I do think that he's motivated out of concern for Padme primarily.
Anakin's failure as a hero comes from how he becomes warped. Obviously, he needs to master the force. He needs to master the Dark Side. Just one thing he forgot: the force not only obeys your commands, but partly controls your actions. So if you learn the Dark Side, that means you have the Dark Side trying to control you. His desire to protect Padme gets warped and twisted, just as his desire to end the war became warped and twisted where what mattered was a return of stablity.
What starts to matter with Padme isn't him gaining power to prevent death, but control over life. That's why he's able to start force choking her in the end: he believes that she has betrayed him, and by this point, he's supposed to have control. It's just just a question of preservation anymore, but instead making the choice.
So, long story short: it starts out being out of love before the fall; then, and only then, does it become a power motivation.
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
WELL AT THE END OF THE DAY ... he got the job done he brung balance to the force :wink:
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
I think it was a quest for power, but not in quite so "sinister" a form. I think his quest for power lay in his desire to "make things right" including bringing order to the galaxy and preventing the death of Padme. He began to increasingly see existing power structures are ineffectual and to set things on the right path, he and Palpatine needed to be in full control. People who were opposed to this had to be "evil" because everyone should have been able to see that the Vader/Palpatine way was the only way to get everything to fall into place and keep the universe from falling to pieces. I think his fall was more a misguided sense of... well, civic duty, for lack of a better term, that got wildly out of control.
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
Sorry Shaun, I'm with Matt on this one. If Anakin truly loved Padme, he should have listened when she begged him to turn from the path he'd taken. But he wasn't doing it for love of her - he was doing it because she was *his* and he didn't want to lose her. (Fear of loss - remember Yoda's advice to Anakin about letting go of that you fear to lose the most?)
I'm not denying love was there between the two of them - but Anakin's turn to the dark side was motivated by fear of loss and greed for power rather than true love. He didn't do it for Padme - he did it for himself.
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
Anakin's love is just another outlet for his greed. To reference Yoda, love is just the shadow of greed.
So, yeah, Anakin's love for Padme is just greed in a comfortable (if oddly depressing) skin.
Power it is.
Why did Anakin turn to the dark side
Now I see Anakin's fall in a different light. The way I see it, Anakin went to the dark side for one reason and one reason only: power, pure and simple. That's what motivates him. He wanted more and the dark side gave it to him on a silver plate. As he says in episode 3 "I want more and I know I shouldn't" or something like that. So when it becomes convenient for him, Anakin deludes himself by pretending its all in the name of love. Ultimately he's just seduced by power.
Star Wars Ep 3: Motives for the Dark side *Spoiler warning*
****Caution...semi spoiler ahead*****
Ok guys, here is the thing (for those of you who have seen the movie). Matt and I are arguing about Anakin's motives for turning to the dark side. Now ill post my opinion, and Matt's will follow after. We need your help deciding which is right ;)
I say Anaking turned to the dark side out of love. He's a tragic hero, who met his downfall because he just wanted to do what was best for the woman he loved. Now im saying as he became seduced, the motives began to change towards gaining power, but ultimately, the reason for Anakins fall from grace is because of love - beautiful but tragic.